"... one of my working assumptions here - what poetry has taught me, if you like - is that the reason human beings often seem to like poetic language is because they are attracted to all forms of complexity. For many readers of poetry it is precisely its opaqueness - its resistance to easily communicable 'meanings' - that is the source of its pleasurable and memorable attraction."
- Philip Mead, from the introduction to Networked Language.
Sunday, July 26, 2009
all forms of complexity
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That's an excellent thought, Stu. And one worth well exploring, why do humans read poetry. The positive side, thanks for that.
ReplyDeleteVery interesting stu.
ReplyDeleteMaybe is because our habitual way of reasoning is done by analogy, which is a kind of metaphore, that is what poems are usally compose of.
Well, that's exactly right -- we read poetry for the same reason we play "fight club" or "lego star wars" -- it's difficult and satisfying at the same time.
ReplyDeletePaul: Glad you got something out of it. :)
ReplyDeleteMariana: Traditionally, yes. I'm interested in the following question: 'Can poetry (or creative writing, or writing in general) resist metaphor?' Is there any escape from metaphor?
Nathan: Computer games were a central part of my life between the ages of 6 and about 18 or so. Since then I've kind of lost touch with that world. You make an interesting point though. I imagine there'd be some overlap in terms of 'motivation' for reading poetry / playing computer games, although I wonder how much the respective audiences overlap? Gamers attitudes towards poetry vs. poets attitudes towards games would be an interesting study...!
I've been thinking about this today, Stu. There certainly is that puzzle solving drive, as evidenced by Suduko and crosswords. But then I started thinking about why humans love listening to music, hmm,
ReplyDeleteRegarding music paul, I think is an instinct:
ReplyDeleteWhat I really think about music is that in evolutionary terms it was the first auditive communication system that existed, that it is why is so related to more basic functionalities of the brain such as feelings. But somehow for humans music did not work, we needed something more complex and rich, that is why language emerged and music was left aside and eventually became an artistic expression.
I was thinking also that metaphors are fundamental for language, for example when you create a new concept is usually done base on a metaphore of a previously existing one, and I do not know if it is possible to translate that to music, I can't imagine metaphors emerging from musical communication type.
Hey Paul, I think the puzzle-solving drive may be part of the picture, for some readers at least.
ReplyDeleteBut one of the things that can attract me to a poem is a quality of 'unsolvability' or 'indeterminacy'. Or its 'resistance to easily communicable "meanings"', as Mead puts it. This doesn't mean 'meaninglessness' or 'nonsense', of course. And I'm certainly not saying that a poem HAS to be difficult to qualify as poetry. But I do enjoy complexity in art. Having said that, I also enjoy directness and rawness. I have pretty eclectic tastes...
Getting back to your point about puzzles, I can sometimes be put off by poems that read like clues to cryptic crosswords...!
Very interesting points you make about language and music, Mariana.
ReplyDeleteI think my head just went into a spin by trying to compare language with music in terms of richness and complexity!
I think it's possible for music to enter into the realm of metaphor. What about music that attempts to 'imitate' or 'embody' natural sounds such as bird calls or the ocean? Or music that seeks to express emotional states? Schopenhauer saw music as the 'morphology of emotion'.
But as far as I'm concerned, music can consist of any combination of sounds whatsoever. Everything is permitted! ;)
Dear Stu,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the thought provoking quote, I'll be thinking about it for the rest of the day! Makes me interested to read the rest of the book. My first thoughts:
Poetry with rhythm (chanted or 'sung') began as a memnonic device in cultures where there was no written language as a way of maintainting oral history and passing news.
Though poetry no longer serves this function, it is from this oringinal use that poetry maintains it's interest to me as a reader. The rhythm or musicality of the work when spoken, the memorableness of word choices, metaphors and combinations, often more memorable if they are unique and novel or at least unexpected (perhaps this is where the puzzle part slips in). The third and primary attraction, for me, is poetry's function as a bridge between time periods, cultures and individuals. This bridge that works on a visceral level and not solely on an intellectual, game playing/solving one.
"It is difficult / to get the news from poems / yet men die miserably every day / for lack / of what is found there." -w.c. williams
Thanks for dropping by, Bonnie.
ReplyDeleteThat's a terrific quote (one of my favourites) from WCW.
As I've said (either here or on Paul's blog), I don't give too much weight to the 'puzzle-making / puzzle-solving' impetus in poetry.
I totally agree that poetry can work on a visceral level, not solely on an intellectual level. I wouldn't go as far as saying it has to work on both levels to qualify as poetry, though in my own work I think I aim to achieve a balance of both. I'm into the conceptual, but also rhythm, musicality, memorableness, etc... these are all things that attract me when I hear or read poetry.
stu and paul:
ReplyDeleteI found the following regarding music, I think would love it stu and probably you to Paul
How we feel about things is the central concern for people, because emotions mediate between our bodies with their physical perceptions and images of the world and our minds with their concepts and idea the importance of quantifying the nature and intensity of emotional states at the level of populations is evident: we would like to know how, when, and why individuals feel as they do if we wish, for example, to better construct public policy, build more successful organizations, and, from a scientific perspective, more fully understand economic and social phenomena. Here, by incorporating direct human assessment of words, we quantify happiness levels on a continuous scale for a diverse set of large-scale texts: song titles and lyrics, weblogs, and State of the Union addresses. Our method is transparent, improvable, capable of rapidly processing Web-scale texts, and moves beyond approaches based on coarse categorization. Among a number of observations, we find that the happiness of song lyrics trends downward from the 1960s to the mid 1990s while remaining stable within genres, and that the happiness of blogs has steadily increased from 2005 to 2009, exhibiting a striking rise and fall with blogger age and distance from the Earth’s equator.
he importance of quantifying the nature and intensity of emotional states at the level of populations is evident:
we would like to know how, when, and why individuals feel as they do if we wish, for example, to better construct public policy, build more successful organizations, and, from a scientific perspective, more fully understand economic and social phenomena. Here, by incorporating direct human assessment of words
, we quantify happiness levels on a continuous scale for a diverse set of large-scale texts: song titles and lyrics, weblogs, and State of the Union addresses. Our method is transparent, improvable, capable of rapidly processing Web-scale texts, and moves beyond approaches based on coarse categorization. Among a number of observations, we find that the happiness of song lyrics trends downward from the 1960s to the mid 1990s while remaining stable within genres, and that the happiness of blogs has steadily increased from 2005 to 2009,
exhibiting a striking rise and fall with blogger age and distance from the Earth’s equator
here is the rest of the text:http://www.springerlink.com/content/757723154j4w726k/fulltext.html
And I also found this one that is very interestin:
As for popular music, the University of Vermont researchers found that within each genre, the emotional charge of lyrics remained stable between 1960 and 2007. But the overall trend was downward, as metal came of age in the 1970s, punk in the 1980s, and later hip-hop, each exploring darker themes more explicitly than their predecessors in the 1960s.
In a new paper, a pair of statisticians at the University of Vermont argue that linguistic analysis — not just of song lyrics but of blogs and speeches — could add a new and valuable dimension to a growing area of mass psychology: the determination of national well-being.
full text:http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/04/health/04mind.html?nl=health&emc=healthupdateema9
let me know what you think guys
M
This sounds like very interesting research. I'm sure my wife (Monica) will find it interesting too.
ReplyDeleteWhen it comes to music and song lyrics, I tend not to go for happy lyrics. So many are tainted by sentimentality (not sure if you're reading this Paul, but there's that word again!). I can't do sugar-coated; bittersweet is more my style. As far as lyrics are concerned, the songs I like tend to be dark, bluesy and/or melancholy, though not angry or violent. My favourite bands are the likes of Joy Division and The Smiths. And the older I get, the less I like the Beatles and the more I like the Rolling Stones! I love the Blues. There are songs I love which I'd describe as joyful, but there's usually some kind of edge to it at the same time.
Instrumental music can also be tainted by sugar-coating or sentimentality, but there's plenty of classical or electronic music I love where happiness is the overriding emotion. But in most (all?) of my favourite pieces there's an admixture of emotions, a manifold of feelings. Those moments where music approaches life, approaches the lived experience... or indeed, those moments where it's as if music surpasses life...? (I have Beethoven in my head)
I didn't mention soul music... no shortage of emotion there either. Although again the threat of sentimentality rears its head. The rawest stuff is usually the best. How could anyone not enjoy soul?
ReplyDeleteI think you might like this quote stu:"Imitation, then, is one instinct of our nature. Next, there is the instinct for 'harmony' and rhythm, meters being manifestly sections of rhythm. Persons, therefore, starting with this natural gift developed by degrees their special aptitudes, till their rude improvisations gave birth to Poetry." -Aristotle [23]
ReplyDeleteAh, the Poetics. I've read that work several times, and it never fails to remind me of the important questions we must ask of art, particularly as creators of art. To return to the Poetics is to return to origins, in a sense.
ReplyDeleteMariana, your thinking and research seems very much directed towards origins, and when I get on a more scientific/analytic philosophy wavelength that's where I tend to head also. I'm glad that your posts and comments get that part of my brain to flicker. :)